Mike D: Interesting read. Good overall point, but one major contradiction. Most of your points are: People can’t read minds with high accuracy, so you need to ask. If the individuals are so inclined, working in the question can become part of the ritual without disrupting the moment.

And there is the contradiction. Point #3 is “Asking is not spontaneous”. You say there is an entire ritual up to the moment of the kiss. So, the question becomes: If it is not spontaneous, if you are in the ritual: Is there a need to ask? If you don’t want a kiss, as soon as you find yourself in the ritual, then extract yourself (physical separation helps) – BTW: How did you get yourself into the ritual in the first place? For individuals who do not perform the ritual well, then asking can be really helpful. At a minimum, it makes sure that some sort of ritual occurs. In DG’s situations of unwanted advances, there was no ritual (taken by surprise).

I guess I am the type that plays it safe. Unfortunately, thatmeans I may strike out with Karen, “If a man can’t accurately figure out if I want to kiss him or not, then he is probably seriously lacking in one of the main qualities I’m looking for in a man.” It would depend on how strong Karen gives signals.

On the first date, I would expect some physical contact, being “touchy”, holding hands, being close, etc. before the “ritual”. I would also look for the lady to opening up (putting herself in the position) to be kissed. Otherwise, am I that desperate that I need a kiss from an uninterested lady for a cheap thrill?

If it is the second or later date, then some interest can be reasonably presumed, and going for a kiss can be a way to see if we are on the same page.

Unfortunately, I think those lacking in social awareness or who have over-abundant self-confidence (in other words, those who ought to abide by the permission-based dating principles) are those least likely to do so. Funny how that works….

I had a couple of guys try to kiss me way back when I was in high school, but I’ve never had anyone come at me with such force or speed that I couldn’t get out “I’m just not ready”. Maybe I’m lucky in that regard.

Conversely, I did have a guy ask me if he could kiss me. To which I had to respond “I’m just not ready yet”. And it was monumentally awkward. I would say in general “if you feel like you need to ask specifically because you are SO unsure as to how she might feel, she probably doesn’t want you to kiss her in the first place.”

I think if anyone came at with me with such force as to leave me unable to resist his advance, I would probably feel reasonably justified in acting to defend myself – physically. Thankfully, most men I’ve met don’t treat kissing like a martial art.

I tend to instinctually agree with Karen that I’m not particularly interested in a guy who lacks the social skills and wherewithal to figure out whether it’s OK to kiss me or not.

I’m sure it would be nice to hear “May I kiss you?” under the right romantic circumstances, but I’m not sure if I would trust the guy suave enough to pull it off! If he’s that smooth a talker, what else can he talk me into?